Diskussionsbereich zur Idee: Übersetzungs-Center

Salut et bienvenue à la discussion Chris @GeGeek

Pardon pour la réponse tardive, je suis allé. Les autres partis - MysteryCode, Josh, Black Rider et jacboy - et je aussi parlent mieux l'anglais que le français, donc je passer instantanément en anglais. Les hommes ici vous connaissent et savent ce qu'il est, mais je résume pour toi à nouveau brièvement résumé les idées de base et l'état actuel. S'il vous plaît fermer un oeil aveugle à cause de mon français, c'est l'intention qui compte.

Here we go.

Chris, I think you know the mentioned guys a above, at least their usernames and that they're located in the development area? Due to that, they're the ones talking about the technical side of the idea, I'm the one "defending" the general outline as well as offering ideas regarding using the whole concept.

The basic idea isn't a new one, it has already started with wbbaddons's translation centre, which unfortunaly stopped in the course of really getting deep into the topic itself. A couple of weeks ago I asked MysteryCode, whether he's still interested in the topic and he was quite open to it. Well, we started with a couple of general questions and that brought the two other guys to the scene.

The first rather basic and simple quesion was: How can we provide translations without just sitting in each others forum? You know the situation yourself, there are the different individual forums and the Community Forum, but there's no real interaction so to say. You're providing the French translations and up till now you did that on your own, by visiting e.g. the Community Forum and seeing, that there's a new WCF version, a new, but needed plugin and the like. On the other hand, here at cls-design it's me providing the English xmls, partially I do also support some of our partners, but I don't actually get in touch with other translators, unless one meets by chance.

Based on that situation, MysterCode designed the first rough outline of a possible translation centre, to be seen here: https://translate.mysterycode.de/?l=2 (I wrote the German and English text, they're just kind of dummy-texts).

Let's take a look at it:

Starting from a kind of index-page https://translate.mysterycode.…/index.php?language-list/ all the developers, translators and users will see the existing languages respectively translations of a plugin or standalone application. Moreover, you'll see the general amount of language templates and the number of already checked templates. Accordingly, one's able to see the status of a translation.

Right now there are just some dummy-insertions, but that's quite sufficient for the moment. The developer can insert the exact number of lines to be translated (templates/variables) ("Add Language" within the navigations's dropdown-panel), the relevant general information are introduced and the variables can be manually checked regarding the status of being finished or not.

The whole idea is to connect developers and translators within one spot. Well, such a concept does make sense to be part of WoltLab respectively the Community Forum itself, but right now it's not realistic to offer such a concept to Marcel Werk and Alexander Ebert. They're focussed on WSC and the CMS, so there's simply no developer to be spared for such a concept or supporting MysteryCode.

I told the guys about your translation concept, without going into much detail, as it is your project and I won't spill the beans. However, I told them that you're toying with the idea of offering translations of a commercial base and although the concept here is based on the idea of being for free, we could for instance discuss the aspect of at least mentioning your service in the centre. That means, that developers and users can at least see there's a French translator called GeGeek, offering his service on Platform X, providing translations on Y. Just one idea, feel free to offer other ideas.

As already mentioned, I talked to Alexandert Ebert from WoltLab regarding a kind of general grammatic outline regarding WCF/WSC. He told me that there's no such reference book, it's enough to take a look at the way they're providing the language variables (small and capital letters, pronouns, hyphens...). Thus, I asked MysteryCode about which road to take:

a) We go with Alexander's reply and don't insert any stilistic reference tutorial for translators.

b) We do provide this reference tutorial on our own (checking the templates and writing out the crucial aspects).

Seemingly a) is the easiest way, b) would be nice in the course of professional translations. However, there are two things to be kept in mind. On the hand, WoltLab itself isn't always consistent regarding rules (e.g. capital letters "Mark Thread" versus "Mark Thread as read"), on the other hand, we can't seriously offer 1:1 translations (consider e.g. spelling the German "you" due to the kind of intimacy both ways, with small and capital letters, whereas in English it's just "you", in French there's "tu" and capital letters just at the beginning of a phrase/sentence.). In accordance with that, we couldn't write "All pronouns are to be written and translated by means of small/capital letters" as it wouldn't be valid for all languages.

MysteryCode replied to this aspect within his last thread:

Zitat von MysteryCode

Da es keine bestimmte Richtlinie gibt, könnte man ja schwammig ein paar Tipps zusammenstellen und auf den Rest pfeifen. Schlimmer als jetzt kann es ja nicht werden.

Roughly translated:

Zitat

Since there is no specific policy, we could put together vaguely a few hints and don't care about the rest. It can't get worse than now, can it?

That's the brief overall and I know that one needs to ponder on all, but please feel free to ask questions, offer your ideas and let us know your mind on the way you want to set up your commercial platform. The guys are open-minded, supportive and if there's a way to include your service, we all will try and figure out the best way.

Regards by
Gabi

You're welcome.

Regarding the amount of work when translating, I agree with you. Regularly I do just take a look at the cls-design products, the shop etc., but I also see a lot stuff to be corrected in language templates (there was this discussion on spelling the German "you" within the beta forum) as well as I'm quite certain there should be a kind of reference manual (that's something I do have for the official data I have to translate at the moment and all the translators need to have one as phrases do differ regarding the context).

That's just my view, but the probably best way would be that WoltLab themselves would install a kind of translation center on the website. It's a central place all know, translators could apply for the label "translator", thus gain access to the center, and well, yes, I'm rather in favor of offering a donation. On the hand hand, as you stated, it's a job, someone has to provide, on the other hand, I tend to think that a donation can emphasize the value of the translations. I'm not that naive to really think that such a model would cause a run and turn the community into a better one, but well, at least we could place a certain value upon translations and the people offering it.

I guess we all know some of those people within the WBB-community who simply want to get paid for everything. Never mind that their plugins and designs are partially too embarrassing to even state that these are serious products to be sold, they just want to earn money. Full stop. Accordingly regular customers tend to think that the whole community is rather money-grubbing, that nothing is offered for free and well, owners and administrators want to spend their vaccation in the Caribbean or the like. No need to say that such a view ist simply rubbish, but that's want some of the users think.

MysteryCode's concept is based on the non-commercial scale. One of the reasons, stated by jacboy, is the fact that professional translations would mean to start the concept as a kind of business. One person "employs" translators, doing the work, getting paid. From a purely technical side that would mean one would have to check on such a system with the tax authorities about the legal status (employer, employee...). Moreover, a regular business is something most people couldn't cope with, as they all have a regular job, are students or the like. Thus I think, we do have to leave this option aside.

I'm not sure whether, at this point, one should talk to WoltLab again and just check on their general attititude towards the first way. Whether they would be likely to offer such a concept on their own or absolutely not. If they agree, I guess they will support the non-commercial way, they wouldn't "hire" translators or even people from the community. That's just my feeling, so I could be totally wrong. One could ask, but due to WSC and other issues such an idea wouldn't get a high priority. At least that would be plausible. Nevertheless, depending on @'MysteryCode''s view, what do you think about getting in contact with Marcel Werk/Alex Ebert? Don't you look at me, you're the developer, not me, I'm just talking about language, texts, style etc.

Considering this:

Zitat von GeGeek

I don't think to sell all translations, but maybe we could provide free translations (for little plugins for example, and the community framework) and paid translation for other plugins, bigger (official and unoficial), like Board, Calendar..
We could purpose membership subscriptions, by months ( 3, 6, 9, 12, unlimited) to give access to all translations.

Impromptu I'm not sure whether we're actually free to offer that. The framework is for free, but not WBB 4.1 and the other standalone-applications. If WoltLab themselves provide the German xml and it is, so to say, part of the product and thus, the price, are we really allowed to offer any other translations on a commercial base? Even if we don't offer access and translations via a shop, downloadbase etc. but by applying subscriptions, it is nevertheless a commcercial service, right? So, are we allowed to do that or is it a kind of legal grey area?

What about the developers itself? Assuming that MysteryCode will offer within the next 3 month a large commercial plugin. He'll provide the German language file and asks you, me and three other translators to offer translations. Assuming we do so, he'll receive the translations and can offer the plugin within the plugin-store. Why would customers pay for a translations via a subscription? They'll simply buy the plugin including the translations, won't they? Assuming MysteryCode wouldn't use the translations, he'll just stick to the German xml. The translators did the job, customers gain access via a subscription. Why would he allow us to receive the money, it's his plugin and wouldn't he take care to get his share in offering translations (MysteryCode, that's just an exmmple, I just wanted to picture the situation and what any developer could probably do/argue. ).

How about the amount of non-native speakes? Most WBB-customers are Germans, then there's the English-speaking crowd, French and some of the "minor" or special languages as Greek, Spanish, Arabic etc. There are certainly non-natives, but do we have valid data regarding the exact amount? What about e.g. French, Chris? How many people are there needing French translations? Within the German community there are forums offering English translations, but just on the surface (navigation). They don't actullaly translate forums, descriptions etc., so there's no real added value on their project. It's rather a "nice to have" or that administrator's think its a cool thing to have English (even if they sometimes don't grasp the difference between a real multilanguage community and a German community with surface-translations or Google Translate). To put it differently: How much real need for regular translations is there?

Zitat von GeGeek

Or another way, exactly like the filebase on WoltLab website, people could sell translations or provide them freely, if they want..

Could you elaborate on that regarding the way money should be paid? There's the translation center, it would need an owner who takes care of the money business, including fees? Money is given by developers who want their plugins to be paid and customers who want to have or need a certain type of translation?